Dragon Improvement

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Inverno
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 10:56 am

Dragon Improvement

Postby Inverno » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:50 pm

Actually the dragon is most hate spreader in Ciruin. When i started in the game i heard about the dragon and tought: "Cool... Everyone kill this monster to save the world". Now, when its spawns i think: "Ok...another endless PVP fight where we ignore the dragon most of time to attack other ppl".

If you are not in a big guild, you shoudnt even try to show off. You have no chance of a dragon item.

If you are in a big guild, prepare for drama every time you have enough scales for a item. Or roll scales and never get a item.

So there's my suggestion:

Make dragon give "dragon shard points" instead of dropping scales. They work like PP or CM, but accumulate per character. Each time you do damage to dragon, your points increase. Everytime dragon do damage or kill you, your points decrease. With enough points, you can trade it for dragon weapons, which come locked to the char. So you have to work on a specific character to improve it.

Each dragon can have a different counter, so you can focus each dragon using specific characters. And the amount of points you gain and lose from each attack can be balanced to not make it too easy.

---


"Oh, but it will remove the PVP factor from dragon".

-- Not really. The area will still be PVP, but now you will consider if you have a reason strong enough to stop gaining points from attacking dragon to kill other players and gain nothing.

"Oh, so we can hit and run e never be killed".

-- Make dragon area mob locked. Once you enter, you cant leave until you die, dragon go away or die.

"Oh, but we can zombie to get points"

-- Make it like control crystal. After some deaths, you cant enter the area again.


"What about healers?" (asked by Metzger on Discord)

--Points for healing can be possible, but healing is "easier" to hit and can be abused. So the amount of points gained should be tweaked. Or add a undead dragon where healers can fight and keep everything based on dmg.


---


I think this way, everyone can have fun when dragon spawns.

Well, thats the general idea. :) What you think?
Last edited by Inverno on Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Inverno - Saurian Priest
--
Lutz - Drakeblood Ninja
Kim - Elf Ninja
Mai - Elemental Ninja
Olrox - Dwarf DeathMage
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Rafael
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:10 pm

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Rafael » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:08 pm

I like the Idea of a Dragon Points, id just let all dragons give the same points and the owner os the Points choose the div of his weapon

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Inverno
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Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Inverno » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:19 pm

*Edit with answer about Healing
Inverno - Saurian Priest
--
Lutz - Drakeblood Ninja
Kim - Elf Ninja
Mai - Elemental Ninja
Olrox - Dwarf DeathMage
Tumbizaletalayer - Half Orc Guardian
Bastian - Goblin Cavalier Bark Bark!
Neymar - Saurian Stalker
Mime - Saurian Minstrel

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Kruell
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 10:35 pm

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Kruell » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:30 pm

The Devourer was kinda a test of some systems. What you are suggesting is possible. I'm not sure about doing it for current dragons. We've already had at least one major change to the dragon though so this might work. The hard part would be working out a system where the Dragon Points are about equal to what the dragons currently drop. Just imagine if 20 people show up throughout a dragon's life and each of them use 5 characters. That's 100 characters to spread 10 scale equivalents over. The whole system and scale would need to be adjusted so we don't end up flooding the market again. Right now though, we probably have 10 to 15 accounts that fight at dragon so if it was set to account rewards it would make it easier to balance.
If you look like prey you will be eaten

Terron
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:25 pm

wont change much. large guild can still pound on dragon while the other half devote to stamping out other guilds chances. theres no way to balance it correctly is another thing. sad truth of it all is "its a DRAGON!" it should be wiping everyone left and right so much that numbers are pointless. tail slap knockback should definitely target the whole room again and not stop at 2 targets. numbers mattered less when 8 or 9 people got bounced south critically wounded and small guild mopped half of em up. was definitely more about communication and movement.

this is like asking people to choose dragon points or killing. never both.

im curious tho, if this was a thing would you want it to award points via damage done or per hit or time present at dragon?

there would be flaws and metas for each style.

per hit - ninjas gather points faster, support get dicked, slayers/brigs probably need 2x points on backstabs. mages have a huge advantage because they dont have to stoneskin crimson or kill crystal orbs to hit the dragons while nullifying all melee.

per damage - buffed zerkers will be the meta with the various support they need to rack up points as fast as possible. ruins most classes outright.

time elapsed point system - favors bigger guilds, favors healers, favors hide to lesser extent.



edit: mirror dragon casts mirror spell changes room from fizzle room to mirror lawl. be funny as hell.
Last edited by Terron on Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Rigs
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 10:03 am

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Rigs » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:27 pm

If this suggestion were to be taken seriously, it shouldn't be that difficult to balance.
Every time the dragon hits it's damage threshold for dropping scales, the player who pushes that threshold gets 3 points, everyone else present gets 1 point.
Every person present when dragon dies gets 2 points.
Last hit on dragon gets 5 points.
Could make it work exactly like PP coins and be able to turn, let's say 30 points into a 20 point coin.
Allowing them to be exchanged into coins, and awarding players present for damage thresholds and death makes it a bit more viable for healers to accumulate points.
All that's left to do is decide the cost of a weapon, which would probably be around 50 points.

Terron
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Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:36 pm

again if its just waves of dragon points at certain intervals it favors large guilds and heavy hitter dps mostly to hit the threshold. screwing everyone else. im all for changes but this system doesnt even fix 1 problem it was meant to fix on the original post. it actually just emphasizes them all and makes them worse.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants

Rigs
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 10:03 am

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Rigs » Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:56 pm

I don't think the dragons were ever intended to be a target for small guilds. Thanatos is the same way, the more people you come with, the greater your chance for success, yet the lower your chance to actually receive loot if you win. The distribution of scales is a more pressing issue.
If room-wide drops make the points too plentiful, then restrict the points awarded to be party only. If there are 3 parties there and party 2 gets the killing blow, party 2 is awarded the points.

I don't see an easy solution to allowing small groups to participate aside from restricting PVP.

Now if that route were to be taken, you could make the dragon room KTP. Make the room PVE only when the dragon lands, and PVP when the dragon is flying (essentially locking players into a pvp only room with no threat from the dragon). Have the dragon fly up at random intervals to re-enable PVP for a couple minutes, then land again. Cycling pve and pvp like that would put heavy strain on pot/mana reserves for anyone involved, give all players a chance to score some points, yet still give larger groups the edge.

And if you really wanted to make it interesting the dragon could fireball the entire room as he lands and potentially finish off a few players who were engaged in PVP.

anthriel
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:04 am

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby anthriel » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:37 pm

I agree with much of what Inverno has raised as the problem. When I first suggested the dragon scale system, it was as a new player who was faced with the majority of a guild (half the playerbase in our 2 guild system) being demoralised and wanting to quit over dropstealing of crimson items (when the dragon used to drop the entire item upon death) .... and it was a suggestion make sure 50% of players didn’t feel cheated out of all their hard work entirely, and to also incentivise ppl to show up at dragon not only when it was critical, but all the way through in hopes of getting some reward. It probably is still an improvement on that old system.

But As inverno pointed out, Dragon scales = drama .... and I think it’s cos it largely epitomises the current (connected) loot system + super-guild system limitations. It’s bad enough with OADs where you have lots of ppl putting in effort (many diff people doing keys and running the actual OAD) to only end up with 1 prize to be shared among the many. I already think that frustrates a lot of people. But at least with OAD there is a repeatability to it that means that if you join a big enough guild and are patient and work hard enough, then your turn to get the reward will likely come eventually.

Not so with dragon items. With the dragon there is lots of people expending effort and very few can reap the rewards. And hence the interpersonal drama and/or demoralisation when effort required to be expended leads to no visible personal gain other than perhaps enjoying a place to potentially kill people you may not like. And 30scales per dragon item means that only superguilds will ever have the chance to pool together and collect 30. At least if it was only 5, a solo player or small guild might think it worth trying to accomplish scrounging that through sheer luck and hard work lol.

Anyway I’m not sure if Inverno points system is the answer, although I certainly like the way he is thinking outside the box to try and frame a solution to a noted problem. I personally like many elements of the idea cos it promotes a more individualistic approach rather than guild approach to the dragon. But the questions raised by Terron about how the points are allocate out does leave some practical balance issues to be worked out.

Some other ways that could help address the problem somewhat:
1. The guild redux. A system of smaller guilds would mean less interpersonal drama between large groups of players to see eye to eye on loot distribution issues etc.
2. Change the number of scales needed to form dragon weapon (eg say 150) and make the scale drops happen more commonly. This essentially makes the dragon scale more like a death hex (which no1 complains about cos they are much more common) so that people are happy to collect their own and save up for a craftable item rather than having to always pool it with their guild and then get flustered over whether or not the final recipient of the reward actually deserves it, or whether the helpers essentially get nothing for all their assisting effort when the person who takes the item then leaves the guild etc etc.
3. Could always go down similar route as devourer with scales being account-bound to person who picks up (like the devourer pages). Difference would be pvp at the dragon to grab the scale. Perhaps if you are killed while paralysed with the scale in the dragon room it drops but otherwise it is account bound

Anyway none of these suggestions is full proof either. But the dragon system does highlight the limitations of EO’s loot system (and hence guild system also - which is interrelated cos ppl have to organise themselves in such a way to access the loot system, even if it is personally distasteful to them). The dragon system represents the extreme scenario of what is wrong with the OAD system - ie it is where you see the most extreme example of mismatch between effort of many players vs reward to individual player. Inverno’s idea/thinking and the above suggestions are probably helpful in trying to fix that loot system issue in general (and especially the dragon as it’s worst offender) to some degree.

Peace all.

Terron
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: Dragon Improvement

Postby Terron » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:55 pm

well. to point a fact i got a scale solo today while my guild friends fought off the tyranny 1 square away.

im not trying to criticize here but has anyone ever Dropstole a scale from an army sitting on the square? i highly doubt it. its always done via small group didnt do as much dps but still gets a scale because the overwhelming group doesnt have enough dps to kill priest and guard and beat potions within 45 seconds. and this is because they dont want to die. so they run 15 healers/guards and support classes and cant kill anyone. this is their own fault as they could use 15 zerkers and kill the 5 opponents in 2 rounds. they just dont want to be vulnerable themselves. this is also not a drop steal by any means, groups smash on dragons back and forth, someone grabbing a scale is not drop stealing.

i have seen dragons dieing in 4 spawns, and once recently dragon died 7 days apart (4 day cooldown 3 spawn total). i think these items are already getting poured into the game relatively fast. the dragons are fine, dont need to make these items candyass like oads.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box"

this game is like sim ant
zerg the red ants with more black ants


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