PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

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NiteHawk
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PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby NiteHawk » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:56 am

Interested in what people feel about it so far.

Some people have stated to me that alot of people have migrated to strength/endurance over AGI because they feel like AGI doesn't perform enough. I'm wondering how valid this is and what the solution can be if it exists.

Two people with the same AGI will have 40% hit rate, so that is the base. Right now 19 agi vs 24 agi would be a 5 AGI difference, or 10%. So this means in this scenario 19 agi would hit 30% of the time, and the 24 agi player would hit 50% of the time. (40% is PVP base.). So the difference out of 100 hits would be 30/100 hits with 19 AGI, or and 50/100 hits with 24 agi.

Is the above enough? Should it impact more? Maybe 3% instead of 2%? That would mean that it would be a 15% difference. So in the above scenario it would now be 25% hit rate vs 55% hit rate. Maybe that would be better.

Remember the above does not have any class bonuses added. Typically for most classes you can add or remove an AGI point, or 2% more dodge or hit rate. (monks dodge for example).

However, I also wonder if AGI is truly the problem now. Perhaps the damage multiplier is too high as a whole. Maybe the damage multiplier is too high. Maybe the per END point is too high, etc. AKA instead of a ling having lets say, 180 damage and a saurian having 230 damage, it would be better off at lets say 15% less, so 153 damage and 195 damage. Not sure if this is the real case solution though yet too but it would help average out the damage more, obviously because higher damage races would get more of a percentage off then lower races.

Maybe it's simply that the HP variance is too high, so that high HP classes have far too much HP so those extra hits in the end are the same as having less AGI. For example:

-I have 24 AGI and 800 HP. I get hit with 4x200 damage. So 800 damage. I'd die.
-I have 19 AGI and 1200 HP. I get hit with 6x200 damage. So 1200 damage. I'd die.

Both could be considered the same, because the AGI vs HP gain. However it might be seen right now something like this

-I have 24 AGI and 800 HP. I get hit with 4x200 damage. So 800 damage. I'd die.
-I have 19 AGI and 1200 HP. I get hit with 5x200 damage. So 1000 damage. I'd not die.

Meaning the HP gain is more useful in this scenario, which could be the case currently.

Maybe all races require the same kind of bonuses that lings might give to give them an edge, aka the stamina wait timer being quicker. I don't think this is a good idea though, probably far harder to balance anyways.

Need input though. Ideas, suggestions, etc. Balancing is tough work, and I WANT to ensure that high end/low agi/high str chars are useful, low str/high agi/low end chars are useful, etc.

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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Terron » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:10 am

in my opinion a ling with 18 24 17 x x x shouldn't beat a half orc 25 19 22 x x x in a melee duel on the mere principle that the str/dex should offset period. the ling should hit more often for less damage. when it comes down to it, saying both had the same hps the half orc still has an edge because the values in str/dex combined are 44 where a lings are 42. that slight edge is only empowered by the fact the half orc actually has significantly more hps. this is all basing the fight on the same gear and no skills. if someone made a half orc with 24 str and 18 agility the damage it does per round should be equal to the ling with the opposite values, in which case HPs wins the fight. You have the option to play other races that bring the fight to a closer range, perhaps a drakeblood 21 22 21(+1) x x 15 or a 21 19 24 x x 16 dwarf has what it takes to dethrone a half orc. guess youll have to see :P

the strengths and weaknesses come into play with abilities. say it was the same fight but with 2 paladins the ling will still be edged out on hps overall damage, but mana pool, ability damage. and heal power are in the halflings favor. in most cases saying that the pally could heal itself til its out of mana the half orc is at a serious handicap because the total life in the fight is putting the halfling far above the half orc. the half orc wont win unless it hits a perfect round, and at 30% it doesn't seem very likely.

the same should hold true for wis vs int on spells.

the strengths of the halfling class are supreme dodge rate and avg ability damage and avg mana pool with subpar melee and hit points. dont make 23-28 points in dex devalue 47-52 points a half orc puts in str and end.

EDIT: alot of games institute a pvp damage penalty like -25% total damage to players, in most cases on a mud that is severely crippling to most min/max builds. that being cuz percentile would affect a horc warrior or gnome mage for more than a less viable build. at the same time it could be whats needed. seeing as the environmental pvp/pk element is not favoring low hps. but on the other side group pking is favoring dexterity imo.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Folder » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:11 pm

NiteHawk wrote:Two people with the same AGI will have 40% hit rate, so that is the base. Right now 19 agi vs 24 agi would be a 5 AGI difference, or 10%. So this means in this scenario 19 agi would hit 30% of the time, and the 24 agi player would hit 50% of the time. (40% is PVP base.). So the difference out of 100 hits would be 30/100 hits with 19 AGI, or and 50/100 hits with 24 agi.

Is the above enough? Should it impact more? Maybe 3% instead of 2%? That would mean that it would be a 15% difference. So in the above scenario it would now be 25% hit rate vs 55% hit rate. Maybe that would be better.


In my experience so far Orcs beat everything else in melee, nearly all the time. Going against div can of course alter that. The huge STR and HP on orcs gives than en edge over pretty much everything else in melee. I think they should have an edge because that's all they are good for, but it's not so much an edge right now as it is a guaranteed victory. Let's compare ling and orc. 23 agi v 19 agi, 18 v 24 str. This puts us at 32% v 48% dodge. 16% difference, but an orc has 450HP more and an extra 6 STR. I don't know the numbers for STR scaling but I do know orcs hit waayyyy harder, as they should.

Halfling = 825 hp, 18 str, 23 agi, 48% dodge against the orc
Orc = 1275 hp, 24 str, 19 agi, 32% dodge against the ling

Orcs should be better in melee than lings, right? I'm sure we all agree on that but they are SO MUCH better that it's not really even close imo. The orc will get eaten by magic, yes, but how then do we balance melee? Surely we want some balance there too. I don't think it's fair to say Orcs win all melee and lings will do better against casters and leave it at that.

There are some races in the middle, goblins and dwarves for example. I think dwarves are nuts too especially since they have good MR. Gobslins just feel meh and still get rather eaten by magic.

All of this is to say AGI doesn't feel like it means enough. When you're trying to fight something with nearly 1300hp it's just like...welp cya later lol. You just don't beat that if you have ~1k or less hp.


NiteHawk wrote:However, I also wonder if AGI is truly the problem now. Perhaps the damage multiplier is too high as a whole. Maybe the damage multiplier is too high. Maybe the per END point is too high, etc. AKA instead of a ling having lets say, 180 damage and a saurian having 230 damage, it would be better off at lets say 15% less, so 153 damage and 195 damage. Not sure if this is the real case solution though yet too but it would help average out the damage more, obviously because higher damage races would get more of a percentage off then lower races.


Eh, maybe. Are those numbers real? I still think the problem is simply not dodging enough on lower HP bros.


NiteHawk wrote:Maybe it's simply that the HP variance is too high, so that high HP classes have far too much HP so those extra hits in the end are the same as having less AGI. For example:

-I have 24 AGI and 800 HP. I get hit with 4x200 damage. So 800 damage. I'd die.
-I have 19 AGI and 1200 HP. I get hit with 6x200 damage. So 1200 damage. I'd die.

Both could be considered the same, because the AGI vs HP gain. However it might be seen right now something like this

-I have 24 AGI and 800 HP. I get hit with 4x200 damage. So 800 damage. I'd die.
-I have 19 AGI and 1200 HP. I get hit with 5x200 damage. So 1000 damage. I'd not die.

Meaning the HP gain is more useful in this scenario, which could be the case currently.


There are multiple ways of balancing this out, but I think the easiest is just tweaking the dodge rates a bit. Orcs/Dwarves should have a lot of health, I don't think bringing the HP pools closer "feels" as good as tweaking dodge.


NiteHawk wrote:Maybe all races require the same kind of bonuses that lings might give to give them an edge, aka the stamina wait timer being quicker. I don't think this is a good idea though, probably far harder to balance anyways.


I could see this in the future but it's not needed for this balance discussion.


edit: in regards to the -25% damage penalty. Not a fan because PKing needs to be fast and furious or else everyone just runs away. Blech. I do understand that it helps balance in a way, but I'd rather find a different way.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Terron » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:46 pm

atm i don't think the dodge rates should be altered until there's viable evidence that a half orc crushes every possible 25 while having more than 425 hps left. which i know isn't true. controlled environment tests would show that the agi classes are only dieing because they have less hps but at the same time ling druids/clerics etc be crushing it in events to. and to point a fact half orc knights are basically only killing other knights/barbs/assassins and monks, which is nothing in comparison to a ling druid or cleric being competitive vs any character. also when it comes to avoiding pks the horc is almost impossible to kill by yourself without it running, but against a group its almost impossible it doesn't die.

so it seems its all preference, personally, i don't see how a 28 pound halfling equips a 100 pound plate-mail and retains 23-24 dex anyway, where a 320 pound half orc in 150 pound platemail would atleast be semi mobile. its like asking whos scarier bill gates or chuck lidell, david or goliath? you'd shit your pants if that snaggle toothed monstrosity tried to cut you in half with a sword, while you'd just kick the ling like a stray dog. the ling should have to use cunning (abilities) to win like david, in the case of ingame it just isn't clashing steel to steel. lings have superb agility that does not entail speed, there is no way a halfling will out run a human or anything else. I love halflings but gd give it a rest.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Honzo » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:06 pm

Does this mean that Gnomes can get an Agi or End buff to since they are at 17 end and only 21 agi? :) They get rocked by lots of melee. I honestly thought that it was 4% per point of agi difference so obviously I've been mistaken. 3% seems okay but 4% is what I already thought it was lol. I do think that horc has too much strength now personally and but i guess if you want more mr you can go less str more wisdom as a dwarf instead.
Agi vs End is avoidance vs hp. I do not think that halflings or gnomes should get a damage nerf though. Thatd hurt even worse. Anyone with 19 or 20 agi shouldnt dodge that much, 21-22 okay, 23 good, 24 excellent right? something like that? I think maybe closing the gap between hp would be better. I even remember in RoK when gobs went from 22 to end 20 end. That fixed the problem real quickly. Maybe adjusting the stats of the races would help and then lift the efficiency to 3-3.5% per agi point difference? I think 25% of the time hits with 19 agi is good considering that you are going to only have to hit 4 times to kill someone as classes hoc would be, less if slayer!

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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Folder » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:21 pm

@Terron

Sorry what?

Bringing "realism" into this throws everything off. It's a fantasy world lol. We can't balance around whether an Orc or a Halfling should win in some kind of real environment x.x

At the end of the day this is a game in which simplicty is part of the charm. Not sure what you mean by use cunning to win because, frankly, there is no cunning in the basic melee classes. I don't believe the design intent is to go some MMO path where classes have dozens of abilities. Nothing wrong with adding things here and there, and that'll happen, but at its core the game won't be very complex.

I also don't know what you mean by "its all preference". Is your preference that Orcs win all melee and thats that? That seems against most of what you're saying because you also seem to want balance, but I'm rather confused by the Orc being bigger/stronger bit.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Folder » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:28 pm

Honzo wrote:Does this mean that Gnomes can get an Agi or End buff to since they are at 17 end and only 21 agi? :) They get rocked by lots of melee. I honestly thought that it was 4% per point of agi difference so obviously I've been mistaken. 3% seems okay but 4% is what I already thought it was lol. I do think that horc has too much strength now personally and but i guess if you want more mr you can go less str more wisdom as a dwarf instead.
Agi vs End is avoidance vs hp. I do not think that halflings or gnomes should get a damage nerf though. Thatd hurt even worse. Anyone with 19 or 20 agi shouldnt dodge that much, 21-22 okay, 23 good, 24 excellent right? something like that? I think maybe closing the gap between hp would be better. I even remember in RoK when gobs went from 22 to end 20 end. That fixed the problem real quickly. Maybe adjusting the stats of the races would help and then lift the efficiency to 3-3.5% per agi point difference? I think 25% of the time hits with 19 agi is good considering that you are going to only have to hit 4 times to kill someone as classes hoc would be, less if slayer!


Right, well, gnomes don't make great melee statwise. Do we want them to since they make such strong offensive casters? Maybe, but then do we want orcs to be viable casters as well? I don't see a problem with having some races strong at one thing and weak at another. I would, as I already have, argue that Orcs (and probably dwarves) are simply too good at melee right now because there's not enough of a dodge difference to overcome the HP/STR difference.

Elves make viable casters, humans, half elves, lings, gnomes obviously. Even Ele and dark elf to some point. But the difference between them and the difference between Orcs and other melee is huge. You don't see a caster race that has +6 end and +6 int over another caster race, do you?
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Terron » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:25 pm

my preference is that a halfling is a 10x better race and well rounded in every class, and that a half orc knight is greater than a halfling knight(or any warrior w/o skills involved) the realism is just frustration that on every game in existence there is no penalty for a ling to be a warrior and that players consistently think a character with less invested (59 points) and lower HPs should beat a character that has 66 points invested and superior str and hps. in every game the general description is fighter: primary stat: strength. not dexterity

lets flip this for a second i want to complain in why my half orc mage cant destroy halfling mages at will? oh that's right because half orcs are dumb and drool on their spellbooks. halflings have their strengths its just not in the str and con firelds they have by far one of the best stat compositions ingame, str and con are their lowest maxstats hence they should suck as a skill-less melee unit.

FTR i made a halfling knight and im not saying all should die by my superb dexterity. im not even saying my warrior should win 5% vs a half orc cuz it just doesnt seem right to me.

dexterity should be the primary damage stat of backstabs not hammer smashes aswell as likely ranger damage to an extent (25% str 75% dex.) i would 100% agree that a halfling assassin should outclass a half orc.

perhaps knights need a different factor on a non sequential stat, perhaps int or wis to influence shield technique(blocks and parrys)


EDIT: folder u are classifying a halfling as a melee class when its only weaknesses lie in strength and con, thats about like me saying a drake blood is a caster and then in that case the difference is 10 int 10 wis for +3 endurance vs a ling being down 6 str 5 end while being up 5 dex 6 wis 6 int and up to 8 chr to a half orc.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Folder » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:02 pm

Ehh this isn't DnD :/. I get the things you're saying but you kinda want an entirely different game it sounds like.

I think the game is mostly fine now with the exception of high HP characters being too hard to kill 1v1 (and a LOT of events are 1v1, there HAS to be balance).

I'm using halflings in this example but Orcs (and probably dwarves) trump everything in melee right now. This conversation isn't specifically about halflings. Orcs/Dwarves can be better than other races at melee, they SHOULD be in fact. But they shouldn't be SO much better that you don't have a shot at beating them 1v1.
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Re: PVP Dodge/Hitrate/Damage/HP

Postby Terron » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:34 pm

perhaps dropping the pvp standard to 33%ish and adding a significant bonus to dodge for a +1? like a stotic 5% bonus? sacrificing stats for a significant dodge bonus seems more proportionate imo. but just remember when u start swinging and hitting 2/10 its just another character stuck in the junk column.


also if you're saying "its only half orcs and probably dwarves" that is implying agility has nothing to do with this entire arguement its end/hps only.

yes there is 1v1 events yes there are team events where horcs suck cuz they cant dodge for nothing. im pretty sure the half orcs have a race chat and conspired to eliminate all other races first. just sayin.
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